Terminal Value

Getting your Podcast out of the Starting Blocks with Nick Nalbach

Doug Utberg

Business Growth Authority | Technology Strategy & Resourcing | Cost Optimization Expert | Business Process Architect | Financial Strategist | Founder - Terminal Value Podcast

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We have Nick Nalbach with us today, and what we’re going to be talking about is getting out of the starting blocks for getting your podcast going, but from the context of doing it for a business, whether it’s like, for example, for an enterprise company that’s kind of done traditional marketing hasn’t really gotten into the podcast space. Or it could also be, say, somebody who’s going on, who’s embarking on a second career. There are a lot of executives. Instead of doing the traditional retirement, we’ll move on to being consultant, in which case podcasting will almost certainly become a very important part of their outreach, branding, networking efforts. And I think this is a little different than the way people traditionally think about podcasting, because a lot of people think about podcasting, as Nick and I were talking pre shows like The Wild and Crazy Entrepreneurs, who are just kind of out trying something and saying, oh, hey, let’s go record a podcast. And I think there’s a feeling by B2B folks or by executives that it should be a little more professional than that. And I think the answer is yes, but maybe not as much more professional as some people might think. Nick, don’t let me talk too much. Introduce yourself here.

Hey, Doug, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be on the show. Yeah. I actually fell into podcasting about a year and a half, and as soon as I did that, I realized how amazing of a marketing platform it is. And as popular as it’s gotten over the years, it’s still fairly new. It’s still an amazing avenue for brands, whether your personal brands or company brands, to build an audience, get in front of new audiences, build a connection with an audience. And if you choose to do guest podcasts, build connections with other professionals in your space. And that connection building thing is by far one of the coolest aspects of podcasting in general.

Yes, I completely agree. Well, and one of the things that I think is very unique about the podcasting medium, too, is that, of course, since it’s free and asynchronous that means that essentially if you have Spotify or Apple Music or one of the other thousands of apps that do podcasts, of course, you’ll subscribe to your most people subscribe to four to six that they really like, and then you can just automatically get your shows downloaded. But what I like is that if you have your long running podcast and you have a host you really identify with, if you’re going on, like, say, a long drive, you could just binge a whole bunch of episodes. And so in a way, it almost kind of becomes I think it’s an ideally suited infotainment category. And I think to me, podcasting is a little different from YouTube videos, which, of course, we’re recording this, and it’s going to be republished on YouTube. But I am not expecting to compete with. Dude, perfect for subscribers. We’re not even the same categories, right? This is long form content, which YouTube is probably the best place for that in terms of video sites. But I think the place for podcasting really shines is that since it’s that audio content, you can be listening to it while you’re doing something else either, while you are working on documents, while you’re doing school, work, while you’re driving, while you’re exercising. I think that aspect of podcasting and being something people can do while they’re doing other activities really let’s be more a part of people’s life than other mediums because if you’re watching videos on TikTok, usually you’re not doing that while you’re doing other stuff. Maybe hopefully you’re not driving while you’re watching TikTok videos. But I think that’s kind of at least to me that’s a part of what’s unique about podcasts. Let me know what your thoughts are.

Yeah, I completely agree. That’s why I know videos caught so much attention over the several years. Everyone’s like got to get on video, got to get on video. I think there is definitely place there is a need for video content showing up on camera. But I think the content and the amount of content that you can share in video is very much less than what you can provide in podcasting because people’s attention spans are not that great. So you’ve got people that will tune into a video, maybe they watch two, five minutes, ten minutes, if you’re lucky, of that video. And like you said, someone will flip on a playlist of podcasts that they’ve downloaded and just binge listen to every single one of them.

You might not have someone listen all the way through your watch all the way through your video, but you could have plenty of people that listen to every minute of your podcast.

And I think that’s so cool because no other platform gives you that kind of attention, that undivided attention. Like you said, regardless of what you’re doing, driving, mowing the lawn, cleaning the house, whatever it is, you can be in that person’s ear at all times of the day. And in my opinion, that’s as a marketing platform that’s what you want. You want to be able to get inside your audience’s ear.

I think this is actually a really good point to sort of turn the conversation and kind of really unpack that idea. But from a B2B context and B2B for people who are younger in their career in the audience stands for business to business. And so traditionally in marketing, in broad terms, a lot of marketing goes segments between what they call B2C or business to consumer. This is when you’re selling to the end consumer of products or business to business, which is where you are selling to the people who make buying decisions at a particular company. And generally speaking, business to business content tends to be a lot more dry. It tends to be more topical. But I think that one of the things that we’re starting to see, where we’re starting to see emerge in the current environment is that there’s a realization that the people who make buying decisions for businesses are still people. And so you don’t necessarily market to them the same way that you would market to somebody, say, who’s buying a set of Nike shoes, but you don’t market to them like they’re robots either. And I feel like the legacy B2B marketing is kind of treats people like their robots. And I feel like there’s a tremendous opportunity for brands, people just in different communities that put more of a soul and a face behind their marketing and help personalize it as opposed to it can help to make things less transactional. Because I think that’s the main of every business to business person is that when things become highly transactional, your margins all get squeezed out, and then you have to go to go try to find someplace else in order to keep from being put out of business.

Yeah. It’s funny just thinking about the term B2B. I have vision like robots talking to robots. But if you think about it, like, take it back down to that human level as a brand, if you own a company, if you own a business, you’re going to want to align with other businesses that relate to your business. They have the same kind of values and the same kind of mission. And with a podcast, you’re able to kind of share those values in that mission, kind of get that point across in a way that I find written text to be very difficult. It can be interpreted so many different ways. And if you have, whether it’s a face of the brand or a voice behind the brand to come out and basically show their true colors, show what we’re about and be authentic with it, that’s so much more relatable. And we’ve seen it with the pandemic and everything happening on, like, people are thriving for that connection. And I think it doesn’t matter if it is B2C or B2B. We’re looking for other businesses, brands and people that we can relate and connect with.

I think that completely makes sense. Totally makes sense. Well, let’s kind of keep unpacking this B2B idea a little more. Okay. So let’s say that hypothetically, say that I’m a brand manager for mid market. Well, I don’t want to say tech company, because tech companies well, not all tech companies have podcasts, which I find fascinating, but a lot of tech companies are kind of some of the early adopters here. But let’s say that I am a mid market consumer products company. Let’s even take it to another level. Let’s say you’re someone like, well, I don’t want to say the name, but let’s say you’re a company that makes labels that goes on to clothing. For anybody who knows what I’m talking about, there’s basically one company that makes like 90% of all the clothing labels in the United States. But let’s say that you’re somebody like that pretty cut and dried, not a whole lot of fist pumping going on. This is very much a grind it out and get it done kind of business. And there’s a lot of those businesses out there. I think that even they can benefit from things like a podcast medium from a couple of different levels. And again, feel free to jump in here and don’t let me monologue. But I’m thinking that, number one, you can start to kind of put a face behind your brand for the people who will ultimately who either be coming to work for you, who will be interacting with you from a client perspective, or who may at some point start to recognize your products. And again, spoiler alert, the company that I was talking about was Avery Dennison. Now, again, I don’t imagine that this podcast has enough reach at the time of this recording to where that’s going to have any kind of positive or negative impact. But basically they make labels that go into closing. It’s like, okay, so what? Well, at some juncture, right.

If you connect with enough people, that will find its way to come around in a beneficial way, at least that’s what I’ve observed. And you don’t always know how those connections are going to manifest in advance.

So there’s a little bit of a danger in trying to be too rigidly planned in the way you go about doing things, which I think is another advantage of podcasting. That what it does is it allows for some of those I don’t want to say random encounters, but semi random encounters. Again, through podcasting, you will interact with a lot of people who you ordinarily would not have met. I know I’ve talked with people from UK, from Asia, from South America, from North Europe, from all over the place, all over in the United States, from over in the local community. And you either hear a lot of perspectives you might not have, and in some cases, you can get introduced to people who you would not otherwise have met. And I think that diversity of connection is really beneficial, particularly for brands, because what most brands will do is they’ll define a marketing niche. And so they’ll say, okay, we’re going to advertise in this niche, or this is how we’re going to try to identify our target buyers and go after them. But the thing is that there could be an undiscovered niche out there that the market research just hasn’t found yet. And things like some of those random connections from networking through podcast is a way that you can kind of stumble on a lot of those opportunities. Because in a lot of the reading I’ve done a lot of the inventions that people know about today were not discovered on purpose. Somebody stumbled on it while trying to do something else.

Yeah. And I guess to add on top of that, with a podcast, you’re kind of able to share your company’s culture. We talked about relatability, but some people might immediately write off a brand because they’ve never heard of them or they just don’t know that much about them and they don’t really care to look into it. But I’m thinking from a B2B perspective, interviewing other people that you’ve worked with, sharing their stories, kind of relating their culture to your culture and how they’re both coming together as a combined unit. People love stories, bringing other brands on to share their stories of how they got involved or what they’re doing to make a difference or help make changes that can be such a powerful thing and pull in a lot of people, like you said, that are on the complete other side of the world that you might not have even thought about.

Yeah, precisely. And I think that the other thing that I really like just about the podcast medium, too, is that it’s just the ability to really have a borderless reach. There’s not really a limitation to what your reach can be globally or anything like that. It’s just based on who’s looked for your show and download it. Now, of course, this show is recorded in English. In countries where English isn’t the primary language, I’ll probably have less reach. When I look at my analytics, I’m always surprised at how many countries I’ll have, like, say, 1020, 30 downloads, not a ton. But I’m surprised that there’s anybody who is. But I think that’s kind of getting to what we’re talking about, which is that you don’t always know what your reach or impact is going to be in advance. And being open to those opportunities, I think, is where you find those chances to get the explosive growth opportunities.

Yeah. And I know we’re really talking about podcasting as, say, starting our own podcast, but I think it also goes the other way to guest podcasting and coming on other people’s show that puts you in front of I had an interview recently on my show where we were talking with a girl that is focused on podcasting, and she talked about owned audience and not owned audience. Your own audience are the people that already know who you are. They follow you on social media. You have their emails. You can reach out to them at any time. They already know about you getting yourself in front of that unearned audience, audiences that exist for another business, podcast that could be the ideal target audience that you have. And by coming on their show, if they have one that exposes you to more potential clients or more potential businesses to work with. So I think podcasting I personally love podcasting and hosting a podcast. I have so much fun with it. But I think guest podcasting has its place, too. And if you’re not ready to actually start a podcast, that could be a great kind of segue into that.

Okay, let’s actually do a kind of a secondary segue unpack, because one of the things we talk about in pre show was starting your podcast and kind of overcoming that fear or trepidation. And at least my thought is that, generally speaking,

when you start your podcast, unless you’ve done an absurd amount of prep, no matter kind of where you’re starting from, your first ones are always going to be your worst ones.

So it’s going to take a little while to kind of get to where you have to kind of find your voice and really get to the rhythm. And so my thought would be, just start, because if you’re really concerned at some point, just hold on to your raw audio files and you can go back and then recut and edit the early ones so they sound prettier. But otherwise, I think it’s most important to just start because I think that’s the way you start getting momentum. I don’t know. Tell me what your experience was.

Yeah. So before I started the podcast, I tried doing video content, I scripted all out and knew exactly what I say, what I want to say.

It takes a disturbingly long amount of time, I might add.

Yeah, it does. So you spend a lot of time doing that, breaking it all down. You know the content, you know the information you want to share. And then I’d hit record and just blank. I would forget everything. I’d freeze up, start turning flush in the face like it was really bad.

The one that always killed me is say, I’d be looking to record something that’s out of five or ten minutes. And right about minute four is I just stumble over something I was saying, and I’d be like, all right, cancel rerecord.

And usually when it starts happening, it just continues to snowball.

Cancel rerecord. Yeah. The amount of case that you have to go through to get a clean video recording is actually quite a few, at least in my case. I don’t know, maybe there’s other people who can just clean the record stuff in one take. I can’t. So that’s actually kind of why I like the authentic medium of podcasting is since it’s a semi live interview, it’s recorded and rebroadcast. There’s not necessarily that desire to try to make sure that you have a completely clean audio.

Yeah. You’re not creating a movie, it’s a conversation. It’s raw. People fumble over words, they make mistakes. And once you get over that fear of like, am I going to sound dumb? Are people going to think I’m not that intelligent? I don’t know what I’m talking about. Once you kind of get over that and like you said, just start doing it, you kind of build up that confidence. And I noticed that quickly after my first few interviews. It was like, man, I put so much more pressure on myself than it needed to be and it just started becoming fun after that. And I’m like kicking myself that I didn’t just take that leap sooner.

Well, in my case, I’ve been following podcasts forever, I think since about 2007 2008, something like that. It’s funny, I went back because for a little while I used to listen to tons of podcasts and then I kind of shifted over to audiobooks for a while and now I’m kind of back to both actually.

I did the same exact thing.

Yeah. But then what I did was I found out that a bunch of the early podcasts that I used to follow, a number of those have just stopped producing content and they stopped quite a while ago. But anyway, remember I actually got Audacity downloaded and I was working on trying to cut episodes for a monologue podcast, like literally ten years ago, like ten years ago. And I just could not get over how bad I sounded. And I kept wanting to reedit and I was just like, It’s too much work, I’m not doing it.

Well, what I like to tell a lot of people too is like as we get older, as we kind of move into that adulthood, it seems like we’ve become way more self conscious over everything that we do. Think about back to when you were a child and you didn’t know what you were doing. You’re just out there doing stuff and your parents are like, okay, go do this and you just do it. You might be terrible at it like picking up a sport like go play baseball, go play football, you suck, you don’t care. And slowly you start developing those skills over time.

I’m fond of saying I can do anything poorly.

Yeah, exactly. And for some reason, as adults, we kind of shade ourselves.

We prevent ourselves from being in that situation where we’re not in control and we don’t have all the answers.

I don’t know what happened from when we were kids to now, but it’s the same concept. You’re going to start probably going to suck. I know my first episodes, if you were to go back and listen to my first ones, they’re not great. And it just slowly started getting better. But until you start putting the repetition, you start just doing it. You’re just going to be stuck in that same situation. It’s difficult to get that first step moving, but once you do, it just kind of continues rolling and you just take off from there.

Yeah, well, and another thing I’ve noticed too is that for me, I like the interview style just because it removes a lot of the difficulty of coming up with what you’re going to talk about. Because of course, if you do say a monologue show, the advantage of that is that you can be very scripted, very on topic, very niche focused. And in fact, I think there’s a place for especially if you’re talking like, say, a brand doing a podcast, you could do a monologue type of podcast. Most likely what you want to do is or you might want to mix that up with, like, a really heavily niche interview. But the thing that I like about the interview style is that, A, you have a less predictable path for the show because it’s more conversational as opposed to scripted. But then B, I end up talking about a lot of things that I might not necessarily have thought of, and I think that’s just amazing.I absolutely love that. I think there was one person I was talking with a little while ago where her specialty is in partnering with families, where the kids are getting ready to go to College, and she’s able to help them find just absurd amounts of money to attend College. I always thought the thing was like, okay, yeah, just based on carpet bomb applications for carpet bomb applications for grants, and then large numbers, you’ll get some, you’ll lose some. And she’s like, no, that’s how the amateurs do it. I never would have known.

Yeah. That’s one of the cool things, too. When I started, I came into it knowing I’m not an expert. And the cool thing is that I can bring experts on. And with a podcast, you have a platform to bring them onto. You have some place that they can speak to an audience and they’re going to want to be a part of that. Before I got into the podcast, I was doing blogging because I can hide behind a computer. I was very introverted, and it becomes very difficult to do collaborations when you’re just typing out text. And soon after, I had lost my podcast a couple of months in, I started getting interviews with people that I’ve been listening to their podcasts for years, and I’d always looked up to them, and it was like the coolest thing ever, because had I been blogging and I reached out to them, I probably wouldn’t have heard anything back. But I was like, hey, I have a podcast. I’d love to interview you about this topic. They’re like, yeah, let’s do it the time, let’s get it done. It was like, podcasting puts you in a position kind of a power. You have something to offer at that point for the guests, regardless of where they’re at. Some of them are obviously more difficult than others to obtain, but you actually have something of value to provide right upfront.

Yeah. It’s actually remarkable how powerful and owned media channel really can be. And the audience doesn’t even have to be enormous. Of course, it helps if it is, but yeah, the own media channel. And I think that’s a place where, say, for brands and companies where the podcast meeting can be really helpful is because, of course, if you’re talking about a large brand, they’re buying marketing on channels all over the place. But having that owned channel, I think it provides a little bit of a different value. But I think I’ve had a similar experience to yourself, which is where I’ve had a number of people agree to interviews where I was like, I never thought they’d want to talk to me. I think that is a way, especially if you’re mid market company and you’re looking to reach out, you’re looking to have your sales team network out to people in different areas. Okay, well, so if you do a sales call, contact all of us corporates are all trained very well to repel anybody that smells like you’re trying to sell something. And so what the

podcasting medium does is it gives you a chance to have a conversation that doesn’t involve a pitch to where you can basically build a relationship so that you can develop future sales or future sales conversations just because getting to that

almost every person will say develop a relationship first and then try to say, okay, that’s great. How do I do that? Particularly how do I do that when at least where I’m at in Portland, we’re still not really supposed to be going out and actually meeting people too much.

Yeah, that is a really great point because the people that you bring on the show, if you choose to do guest interviews, they could potentially be the clients that you end up working with. I know a lot of guests that I’ve brought on. I still have several conversations. We hop on one on one calls all the time. And I’ve been pitched I know I’ve pitched to other guests that I brought on the show. It’s an easy ice breaker, having that podcast versus saying, hey, let’s hop on a call to go talk about this business that I’m working on or whatever. It’s like, hey, let’s hop on a podcast and talk about what you have going on. It’s such an easy way to build a relationship and connection.

Yeah, precisely. I completely agree. Like, for myself, I know there have been a number of situations where I’ve partnered with guests where there’s something to do. I’m like, okay, that is exactly what I need.

Right, exactly. Yeah.

And I think that, again, it’s just being open to those connections. I think that the podcast meeting really helps with that. Well, let’s see. I think we’re getting kind of close to time, but there is value in the title of Terminal Value. So please give everybody one to two more Nuggets of wisdom, and then let us all know where we can find more. Let us know your website best way to get a hold of you.

Yeah. So I guess the last little bit of advice I’m going to kind of go back to something that we talked about before.

It can be so intimidating to kind of jump into that. And I know from a brand perspective, it’s like, okay, well, we have all this other stuff to worry about. Why would we focus on that? I think there is so much value in showing your personality, getting the brand’s culture.

Like we mentioned out into the world, show that you can relate and just get out and do it know that it’s not going to be great to start, get on interviews, start talking with people. That’s probably one of the easiest ways to get started because like you mentioned earlier, it’s not so scripted. You can have like a genuine conversation with someone and it kind of takes the pressure off of that whole like, oh my gosh, what do I say next kind of feeling? So I would just say if you’ve thought about doing it, just do it. And if you’re still nervous about it, try guest podcasting as an introduction into it and see that it’s not as intimidating as it seems.

And I think the statistic that I saw because there’s something like 2 million podcasts out there, which sounds like a lot, but I think the number that have more than six episodes is like 200,000. Yeah, it’s minuscule basically if you just record regularly, whether it’s daily, weekly, monthly. I started out weekly. I ended up going twice a week. I may end up starting to publish more just because my backlog is getting pretty big. And I don’t like having to tell people that it’s going to be four months before. But if you just publish regularly, you’ll start to attract an audience just because, again, there is a fairly small population of creators that just consistently put out content.

I remember there was a statistic about video content and it was like, I don’t know how many hundreds of millions of active YouTube channels there are out in the world. And when you have only 200, 300,000 active podcasts running right now, it’s still new. It’s still kind of the wild, wild west.

You’re still on the front end of the adoption curve. Yeah, you’re still on the front end of the adoption curve. All right. Well, hey, I really appreciate it. Let everybody know your website.

Oh, yeah. So you can find my podcast and all the information. I talk a lot about podcasting on my website at ninefivetofreedom.com. And I didn’t think about this before I started the brand 95 is all spelled out. It’s not the numbers, it’s nine five to freedom. Yes, I made it kind of difficult by myself. Numbers written out in letters, but yeah, you can find pretty much everything podcasting related over there.

Well, I was just thinking if the number nine, number five to Freedom comes out, if you’re able to get a hold of that domain, you can just set up a forward to the long spaghetti tax.

Yeah. I’m going to try to find see if I can snag that.

Alright. Well, hey, Nick. It’s great to talk to you today.

Absolutely, man. I appreciate you bringing me on. It’s been a blast.

Alright catch you later.

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